MSN Philosophy
Ooh yay, a chat log.
I may decypher this into something at some point. Feel free to comment and ask me things.
I am "Jeimuzu", my mate is Michael.
Basically he's the only person I really discuss things like this with.
(19:54) jeimuzu.: you still didn't explain why mind cannot equal physical brain, either
(19:55) Michael: to be honest im undecided
ill talk to you about it after we finish the philosophy of mind unit
(19:55) Michael: how convenient is that?
HUH, BITCH!?
(19:58) jeimuzu.: :/
but you're not in college
(19:58) jeimuzu.: and I'm not taking a philophy thing
so maybe you should go by what you know
(19:59) Michael: yeah, but once ive done the course
i can own you
in any argument
ever
(20:00) jeimuzu.x: :/
oor you might agree with me
(20:00) Michael: maybe
:P
we'll see
(20:00) jeimuzu.x: well at least it will be some fresh input
(20:00) Michael: on my knowledge at the moment, i maintain that the mind is separate from the body
(20:01) Michael: let me finish up this work then ill continue this
(20:01) jeimuzu.x: as inside my own head, I've logically concluded that I'm still right,b ased on the arguments you've given ^^
(20:01) jeimuzu.x: Based on the idea that although we can't be sure the physical does exist, we can't be sure it doesnt
so it COULD
(20:02) jeimuzu.x: and IF it does
(20:02) Michael: oh fuck off with your COULD and IF arguments
WEAK WEAK WEAK
(20:02) jeimuzu.x: well no
because we dont know for sure
(20:02) Michael: why dont you actually make a fucking decision?
christ
(20:02) jeimuzu.x: so we have to base everything on an IF
I personally believe it does expist
I can't prove it
noone can prove it either way
(20:02) jeimuzu.x: so its a matter of faith
(20:02) Michael: were talking beliefs here, james
(20:03) Michael: we both know that neither of us can ever be finally right
so instead of working on IFs
decide what you believe
(20:03) jeimuzu.x: no, thats the issue, if you consider your beliefs definate, then your entire argument is dead because people can just say that you can't prove it
(20:04) jeimuzu.x: and you can't prove it
(20:04) jeimuzu.x: logically (which is all we have for proof), it works on an IF
(20:04) Michael: idiot
you cant prove anything
(20:04) jeimuzu.x: exactly
(20:04) Michael: does that mean every argument is invalid?
fuck no
because some arguments are stronger than others
stronger theory = closer to the truth
(20:05) Michael: the debate, therefore, is about which is the stronger theory
(20:05) jeimuzu.x: well, I THINK that the physical is real. I don't know for sure, but that's what I think.
(20:05) Michael: you begin a debate with a premise
its fucking impossible without one
(20:05) Michael: okay, so the physical is real
whats your conclusion?
(20:05) jeimuzu.x: that everything we know as humans can be explained through it, despite not having the sicence or technology to do it
(20:06) jeimuzu.x: and maybe it would be impossible to make a "brain reader", due to physical restrictions
that doens't mean that all thought isn't explainable through the brain.
(20:06) jeimuzu.x: you get me?
(20:06) Michael: so mind and body are the same?
MIND
not brain
thought
realisation
emotion
(20:06) jeimuzu.x: yeah
(20:07) jeimuzu.x: attributed to thought processes
which are chemical, part of the brain
due to neurones
(20:07) jeimuzu.x: obviously I'm not a qualified neurosurgeon or an advanced quantum physicist, but thats what I think.
(20:07) Michael: well heres what i think
(20:07) jeimuzu.x: however
wait
(20:07) Michael: aww
i was getting all worked up
(20:07) jeimuzu.x: thought, emotion, realization
(20:08) Michael: hurry the fuck up
(20:08) jeimuzu.x: they're not physical objects
(20:08) Michael: "s" dear
(20:08) jeimuzu.x: as such
(20:08) Michael: youre not american
(20:08) jeimuzu.x: just humanly interpeted states
ie they get meaning from the high level
rather than lowl level
now go ahead
(20:09) Michael: oh one sec
(20:10) Michael: arguing with andrew simultaneously
(20:10) jeimuzu.x: what about? :]
(20:12) Michael: hypocrisy
i think he was being hypocritical in complaining that you complain to people
he thinks he wasnt
quite fervently
(20:12) jeimuzu.x: hahahahaha
At least I was direct
we're happy now
(20:12) jeimuzu.x: we be an excellent trio
(20:12) Michael: whats odd though, is that hes not even taking on board my points
(20:13) jeimuzu.x: He doent
(20:13) Michael: normally hes quite a competent arguer
(20:13) Michael: but today he seems to be quite arrogant
(20:13) jeimuzu.x: not when he wants something to go a certain way
trust
(20:13) Michael: even though i truly believe he is wrong
(20:13) jeimuzu.x: like the discussion I had about music shit
he just interpreted what I was saying as wrong deliberately
(20:13) jeimuzu.x: ie not what I was saying
so his counter argument was irrellevant
(20:14) jeimuzu.x: it appears to be about issues that he's like really into
(20:17) jeimuzu.x: hahahaha
I think andrew is talking about the argument with you
(20:17) Michael - Funk Soul Brother has changed his/her status to Away
(20:18) Michael: yeah that sounds about right
im realy fucking pissed off
(20:18) Michael: i told him i went to get a drink and calm down a bit
(20:18) Michael: you watching the world cup final?
(20:18) jeimuzu.x: andrew says (20:17):
I love how
when people start arguments with me
& they say one wrong thing
(I'm not referring to you, by the way)
& they later can't refute it
they always do the same routine
I THOUGHT THAT YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO ACCEPT THIS TRUTH
you know what I mean?
a bit
its 1-1, apparenlty
(20:19) Michael: yah
its actually been a really good game
and i dont even like football
(20:19) Michael: i dont even watch england
i was watching futurama when england lost
(20:20) jeimuzu.x: Yeah I enjoyed the england game actually
(20:20) Michael: anyway, i guess i can give you my arguments now
(20:20) jeimuzu.x: okay
(20:20) Michael: you see, what most people think about mind and body is that thought, ie. emotion, is precisely the chemical and neuro-chemical processes which can, and always are observed in the -brain-
(20:20) Michael: thus one assumes that the thought is dependant on those same processes
(20:21) Michael: however, thought and emotion are such complex -substances- (i dont mean physical, i mean they exist in some sense) that it would be impossible to collect them in a simple series of signals
(20:22) Michael: the signals which are observed can be thought of as a side-effect- of the thought itself
thus thoughts and signals are not the same thing, but they ARE inseparable
(20:22) jeimuzu.x: Hmm
resist...urge...to..speak
(20:22) Michael: the reason i suggest this is that there is such a gap between the emotional capability of a human, and the emotional capability of any other animal
and yet say.. monkeys, have like 98% similar DNA
(20:23) Michael: it cannot be a physical thing
there must be something else
(20:23) Michael: it could be social conditioning, thats a real possibility, but even that is not a feature of the human body
(20:23) jeimuzu.x: so you believe in a line between humans and animals
(20:23) Michael: this could be linked to Sartre's "universality of condition" ie. when you are born you are entirely individual and in no sense defined by those around you or your parents, HOWEVER you are in that same situation that they are
and therefore in some way linked to them
(20:24) jeimuzu.x: so does this mean you also don't believe in evolutionism?
(20:24) Michael: oh fuck off with that
im not andrew
(20:24) jeimuzu.x: no wait
no seriously
(20:24) Michael: of course i believe in darwinism
(20:24) jeimuzu.x: if you believe in evolutionism, when was the line drawn
(20:24) Michael: yes, there is a physical link between monkeys and humans
(20:24) jeimuzu.x: at some point
we must have gained this "mind"
(20:24) Michael: i dont know
nobody knows
its the missing link
(20:25) jeimuzu.x: so both theories have a critical missing link
(20:25) jeimuzu.x: I think that thought is like a picture
at base level
(20:25) Michael: but at some point, instinct -evolved- (if you will) into emotion, despite the lack of any physical encouragement
(20:25) jeimuzu.x: thoughts are like a load of lines scribbled on a page
but
combined
you can have a picture of something
that means stuff to others
(20:25) jeimuzu.x: like a picture of a person
someone will go
hey look, that's a person
so its combinations of neurone processes
(20:26) jeimuzu.x: there's no neurone process which is like UNHAPPY-UNHAPPY-UNHAPPY
but there are very low level processes
(20:26) Michael: hmm, i dont think so
i think thoughts are entirely individual, but also extremely clear
i have a thought, it is about a red rose
theres no mistaking it
(20:26) jeimuzu.x: yeah
(20:27) Michael: its not a mish mash of other thoughs
you see what i mean?
(20:27) jeimuzu.x: that's because your head as generated that to be preceisely what it is
(20:27) Michael: and yet another person could never perceive MY red rose
thats the individualist element
(20:27) jeimuzu.x: yeah
allow me to explain
sorry about the computer analogy
but it does sorat work
for instance, each computer has its own machine code
(20:27) jeimuzu.x: well it doesn't, because its standardised
but if computers were biological
(20:28) jeimuzu.x: self creating
they'd each have their own initial instruction set
(20:28) jeimuzu.x: to another comptuer, the 10111010100 would be a load of random crap
see what I mean?
(20:28) Michael: yah, youre precisely describing individualism
(20:28) jeimuzu.x: not sure if you understand how computers are made up of levels...do you?
(20:28) Michael: but its self-contradictory in the context of computers
precisely because theyre manafactured
(20:29) Michael: therefore theres some physical link between them
manufactured*
(20:29) jeimuzu.x: but we're not manufactured
we have a base blueprint
and we grow from that
(20:29) Michael: so we're not like computers
elaborate on this blueprint thing
(20:29) jeimuzu.x: ok
so we grow right
(20:30) jeimuzu.x: we have dna
which outlines key features
(20:30) jeimuzu.x: physical appearence
but
your mind is developed through growth
it creates itself
learns
(20:30) jeimuzu.x: learning is fairly high level
obv
(20:30) Michael: physical growth or what?
(20:31) jeimuzu.x: like low level growth
hard to explain
ie
the whole internal communication type stuff
how do I explain this
(20:31) jeimuzu.x: the whole 101010101 to one thing means apple, to another means DPIOFN*W£
know what I mean?
Like how they put a rat brain on some neural receptors
and it learnt to fly a jet plane
(20:32) jeimuzu.x: with simplified controls
it essentially rewrote its low level code
I'm kinda rambling here
(20:32) jeimuzu.x: as its very very hard to explain my thought
(20:32) Michael: i dont think anything youve said really explains why mind and body are the same
(20:32) jeimuzu.x: why not?
(20:33) jeimuzu.x: I'm just explaining some background on why I think thought is attributed to phyiscal
(20:33) Michael: well, this "learning" business
(20:33) jeimuzu.x: growing
a better word
don't take that word at face value
it was a bad word to use
(20:33) jeimuzu.x: IE in the womb you get basic neural structure
then your brain switches itself on
(20:33) Michael: but how is learning a physical process?
(20:34) Michael: youve given me examples of learning
and the physical -effects-
(20:34) jeimuzu.x: builds a system for itself to work
its a system that writes itself
its...amazing
(20:34) Michael: well, in this case we're talking about mental capacity
(20:34) jeimuzu.x: not capacity
at all
(20:34) Michael: ie. HERE <-----------> TO HERE
(20:34) jeimuzu.x: I dont get what you're saying
(20:34) Michael: but its the <------> that is the mental component
(20:35) jeimuzu.x: capacity is irrelevant in what Im trying to say
(20:35) Michael: youre talking about building a framework, right?
(20:35) jeimuzu.x: please empathise with me finding it really hard to explain this
right
(20:35) Michael: a mental framework
(20:35) jeimuzu.x: do you understand how there's different levels of comptuer language
(20:35) Michael: well a framework may well be a physical thing
i dont think it is
but yeah, it could be
(20:35) Michael: and yet thought within that framework does not necessarily need to be a physical thing
just because it operates within physically given bounds
(20:36) jeimuzu.x: no I'm saying the "programming language" in which thought is written is what makes us individual
(20:36) Michael: coz you know, i wouldnt ever suggest a mind can function without a body
(20:36) jeimuzu.x: each has its limits, different ways of doing things
(20:36) jeimuzu.x: roughly the same due to its human design
so what IS a mind
So the mind /brain thing
(20:37) jeimuzu.x: What it sounds like
is that mind/brain seperateness
is purely due to how you visualize things
;)
(20:37) jeimuzu.x: how you understand them
(20:37) Michael: a mind is thought, emotion, intelligence, as a metaphor - the mind is the driver
(20:37) jeimuzu.x: yeah, its a metaphor, a high level understanding of low level function
(20:37) Michael: the brain is the medium, through which the mind operates inside given physical boundaries - ie. the car
(20:37) jeimuzu.x: yes
the mind doesnt "exist" as such
(20:37) Michael: no, im not saying the mind is a metaphor
idiot :P
(20:38) Michael: im saying the driver is a metaphor for the mind
and the driver bloody well exists
okay?
(20:38) jeimuzu.x: Hum
(20:38) jeimuzu.x: Well what you're saying it sounds like it only exists as a concept, not an entity
ie its there
but its not a "thing"
(20:39) jeimuzu.x: its a way of understanding
(20:39) Michael: i dont understand you
its there but its not a thing?
what?
(20:39) jeimuzu.x: Why
its a visualisation, a concept
its how we see something lower level
I mean code doesnt EXIST
(20:39) Michael: but you think visualisations and concepts exist in the physical mind
(20:40) Michael: so why are you using that comparison?
(20:40) jeimuzu.x: aside from their presense as a string ;)
(20:40) jeimuzu.x: well they exist in that sence
but our understanding, as a high level concept
(20:41) jeimuzu.x: ie, higher level than the physical (still attributed to it but no MEANING from it)
(20:41) jeimuzu.x: wow, my grammar gets real bad when I'm thinking
(20:41) Michael: so you believe in a higher level than the physical?
least you can spell grammar
(20:41) jeimuzu.x: well everything is a higher level
psychology
(20:41) Michael: i fucking hate retards that go on about bad grammer
(20:41) jeimuzu.x: *grammar
/intentionally fails to get joke
(20:41) jeimuzu.x: but yeah
(20:42) Michael: do you believe in a higher level than the physical?
something outside of the physical?
(20:42) jeimuzu.x: levels are just levels of understanding
not existence
(20:42) Michael: so you actually believe the mind operates outside of the physical?
(20:42) jeimuzu.x: And I can't say either way as to whether there's a higher level of existence
no, we understand it to, but it doesnt
(20:42) jeimuzu.x: we concieve it to
and thats not wrong
because thats how we operate
(20:43) jeimuzu.x: in actuality its physical
(20:43) Michael: okay, now im confused
(20:43) jeimuzu.x: in meaning and understanding its higher level
(20:43) Michael: and it takes a lot to confuse me
(20:43) jeimuzu.x: Is that due to me saying things badly
or what
(20:44) Michael: because you use this highly individual vocabulary of "levels"
(20:44) jeimuzu.x: Yes
yes I do
(20:44) Michael: you suggest that there is a higher level than the physical
(20:44) jeimuzu.x: I use a more reductionistic idea of it
(20:44) Michael: and yet that there is nothing beyond the physical
apart from that which we conceive?
well surely if something exists in the conception alone, it has an existence outside the physical?
(20:44) jeimuzu.x: no, I'm not doubting that there's higher level than the physical, but I dont think its relevant in my argument
(20:44) Michael: reductionism is bullshit
(20:45) Michael: look at the bigger picture
this is not science
(20:45) jeimuzu.x: no it isn't, its not a theory, its just a method of understanding
(20:45) Michael: i never said it was
but itll never help you understand the mind
(20:45) jeimuzu.x: of course it will
my whole argument is based on it
if you start saying things are bullshit
which is a shame
(20:45) jeimuzu.x: because I thought you were actually trying to get what I say
then there's no point arguing
(20:46) Michael: i am, you need not involve reductionism, what you are in fact doing is NOT reductionism
its just separating one object from another
its not breaking that object down into little bits and looking at them and knowing what the big thing was
(20:46) jeimuzu.x: reductionism is how the world works, or, more acurately, a very useful way to understand it
no, your taking reductionism too literally
(20:46) Michael: reductionism fails at emotion
and thought
(20:46) jeimuzu.x: maybe I'm misusing reductionism
(20:46) Michael: and realisation
(20:46) jeimuzu.x: no it doesnt
(20:47) Michael: thats what i think youre doing
(20:47) jeimuzu.x: And reductionism doesn't "fail" at that
(20:47) Michael: because youre doing the opposite of reductionism in suggesting that we can conceive of a higher level than the physical
(20:47) jeimuzu.x: at all
the whole concept of concept is a high level one
ok
shush a minute
(20:47) Michael: reductionism is great at like.. particles and shit
know what i mean?
(20:47) jeimuzu.x: wait
back to my painting thing
(20:48) Michael: ?
(20:48) jeimuzu.x: so your panting is made up with brush strokes
we look at brush strokes
(20:48) Michael: oooh this
(20:48) jeimuzu.x: we see it as a picture
(20:48) Michael: this argument illustrates why reductionism fails
(20:48) jeimuzu.x: its actually brush strokes
but
meaning is a high level
(20:48) jeimuzu.x: its like, high level ideas sustain each other
because the whole idea of ideas is high level
despite the fact that in actualality its physics
right?
(20:49) Michael: back
mum making popcorn
^_____^
yes, reductionism is not that
(20:49) jeimuzu.x: well fuck reductionism
just go with what I'm saying
(20:49) Michael: reductionism is: the painting is brush strokes, the strokes are made of pigments of inks formed into a paste
(20:50) jeimuzu.x: I only mentioned it
(20:50) Michael: if we look hard enough at the particles, we can tell why the picture is beautiful
(20:50) jeimuzu.x: because you were getting me wrong with my idea of levels
(20:50) Michael: can you see why i said (slightly aggressively) reductionism fails at emotion
(20:50) jeimuzu.x: no, thats just a MISUSE of reductionism
(20:50) jeimuzu.x: I mean music is mathematical right
but
you couldnt purely use math
(20:50) Michael: umm
no
(20:50) jeimuzu.x: to make good music
well a lot of it is
(20:51) Michael: some of it is
(20:51) jeimuzu.x: yes
(20:51) Michael: some of almost everything is mathematical
but there is a HUGE GAP
i cannot tell you how huge
(20:51) jeimuzu.x: yes
(20:51) Michael: between "to do with maths" and "based on maths"
(20:51) Michael: bing
(20:51) jeimuzu.x: well everything comes down to maths eventually, but we dont need to worry about that, were stopping at physical
(20:52) jeimuzu.x: before you say something
(20:52) Michael: gahgahaakjda[podijq'ewiur'dsgf;oiuewtiujsdfijs\dfokwepoirpl';ksaclkje;iet
waiting
(20:53) jeimuzu.x: well I'm saying that yes, everything can be reduced to math, logic, BUT, the meaning we have is a high level, ie its really math, but it isn't because its so complex it could never be seen as math by a human mind, because the gap is so huge
IE, reducing stuff to the lowest would NEVER help with creativity
(20:53) Michael: and THIS is the huuuuuuuuuge gap between you and me
(20:53) jeimuzu.x: just like it would be fucking impossible to write windows using the 10101010101010101110101010101
well not impossible
how is this a gap
(20:54) jeimuzu.x: how can you not agree S
(20:54) Michael: i thought that was what windows was?
:(
(20:54) jeimuzu.x: yes
(20:54) Michael: how can i not agree? CHRIST
(20:54) jeimuzu.x: thats what it IS
wait
yes thats what windows IS
but thats not what we see it as
(20:54) jeimuzu.x: get what I mean?
(20:54) Michael: it is my most core belief that language is just something else
linked to that is my feeling about mind and body
oh right okay
language is just something amazing
(20:55) Michael: its powerful, moving, emotional, informative
its anything
(20:55) jeimuzu.x: very complex
(20:55) Michael: language will never be explained through mathematics
(20:55) Michael: though andrew believes definition is a mathematical thing
(20:55) jeimuzu.x: you underestimate mathmatics
this isn't 1+1
=2
(20:55) Michael: which really, REALLY pisses me off
(20:55) jeimuzu.x: this is ridiculously complex
(20:55) Michael: no, language doesnt follow rules
like 2 following 1
(20:55) Michael: language is whatever social interaction defines it to be
theres no equation for conversation
(20:56) jeimuzu.x: well everything follows rules, but those rules are at such low level, you cannot comprehend them, so they become non-noticeable
(20:56) Michael: same as theres no equation for shakespeare
its simply an OTHER
something BEYOND mathematics
(20:56) jeimuzu.x: see you're simplifying math too much
(20:56) Michael: you think everything comes DOWN to mathematics
(20:56) Michael: i think its the other way
people reduce language to mathematics sometimes, you see?
but that reduction changes the nature of language
you dont end up with language
this is what i mean by the huge gap
(20:57) Michael: probably better thought of as a barrier
(20:57) jeimuzu.x: Your lack of understanding of the concepts I'm trying to put across is astounding :/
but that aside
yes
language is amazing
(20:57) jeimuzu.x: you or I could never understand it through mathematics
NEVER
(20:57) Michael: theres no crossing it at all, because mathematics and language are two radically different concepts, the fact that they exist in the same universe is the only (if very important) linking factor
(20:57) jeimuzu.x: because we see language at the high level it is
(20:57) Michael: yeah, and because i believe that so fervently, i apply similar theory to other emotional concepts
(20:58) Michael: or emotional concepts themselves
(20:58) jeimuzu.x: wait
your faith in language is almost barring you from trying to look behind it
thats crazy
(20:58) Michael - Funk Soul Brother is now Offline
(20:58) jeimuzu.x: you got to love it enough to...see it for what it reall is
(20:59) Michael - Funk Soul Brother has signed-in (Away)
(20:59) Michael: umm
back
pulled out my cable by accident
whatd i miss?
(20:59) jeimuzu.x: nothing much
just mee getting frustrated
wait
your faith in language is almost barring you from trying to look behind it
thats crazy
you got to love it enough to...see it for what it reall is
(20:59) jeimuzu.x: etch
(21:00) jeimuzu.x: but yeah, try to see it from my point of view
language is amazingly complicated
(21:00) Michael: i know what you see it as "really" being
(21:00) jeimuzu.x: beyond human comprehension
(21:00) Michael: i understand that
i do
seriously
i just think youre wrong
-think0
(21:00) jeimuzu.x: :/
(21:00) Michael: not saying you are
just that i dont agree
brb popcorn
(21:01) jeimuzu.x: how can you think I'm wrong, I mean in actuality language is...due to psychology, it's not a "thing", but it's denoted by "things", and thus reducible to maths. that doesn't make it ANY less amazing, and it doesn't make maths ANY greater, and it's not a rigid link, I mean a sentence doesn't have a formula
(21:01) Michael: think of it like this, lets pretend theres a God
(21:01) jeimuzu.x: the gap is massive
(21:02) jeimuzu.x: word
(21:02) Michael: even if there was a God, that God could not reduce language to mathematics
(21:02) jeimuzu.x: oh, you cant reduce it, only the universe can reduce it, it doesn't mean that isnt how it happens
the gap is so huge
it just wouldnt work
its too complex
(21:03) jeimuzu.x: you could get a billion alienwares, voodoos, and whatever
they wouldnt be able to reduce it
because the universe is organic
and organic is mathematic
(21:03) jeimuzu.x: the state we're in is organic
(21:03) Michael: the day psychology finds a mathematical link between producing sharp pain and sadness and reading shakespeare is the day i admit im wrong
(21:03) jeimuzu.x: the state of everything is
you cant"find a mathematical link"
its just not possible
(21:04) jeimuzu.x: we cant do it
we're human
it dont mean it doesnt happen
(21:04) Michael: because there is no mathematical link
(21:04) jeimuzu.x: no
(21:04) Michael: irregardless of our own capabilities
(21:04) jeimuzu.x: its not because there i no link
why not
how
(21:04) jeimuzu.x: I've told you why it is
I think
(21:04) Michael: let me put this like you put it: "how can you think I'm wrong" when in every single experiment, every single person has come to the same conclusion
(21:05) Michael: "i cannot see a mathematical link between emotion and words"
the -logical- conclusion is that there isnt one
(21:05) jeimuzu.x: what
the fuck
are people
trying to do
they most be pretty misguided
(21:05) jeimuzu.x: if they're trying to find a link
that's just du mb
(21:06) jeimuzu.x: you cant
(21:06) Michael: well, look at it this way: youre suggesting that a link exists that can never be seen
not even by God
(21:06) jeimuzu.x: and the link isn't direct either
(21:06) Michael: does that not seem illogical to you?
(21:06) jeimuzu.x: Not at all
its just percieving the world as layers
(21:07) jeimuzu.x: I think we've become a bit misguided by talking about math anyway
the only relevance math has
is to physics
(21:07) Michael: but we cant see the lowest layers, right?
according to you...
(21:07) jeimuzu.x: well, can you "see" logic
is logic an object
(21:07) jeimuzu.x: thats why because we consider ourselves to live in th physical
(21:08) jeimuzu.x: as thats the lowest level at an acutal object
(21:08) Michael: no, logic is a mental thing
its outside of the physical
(21:08) Michael: its now a lower level of the physical
as you suggest
to me, anywya
(21:08) jeimuzu.x: what?
stop comparing logic to physics
you have to go through mathematics
(21:08) Michael: now = not*
(21:08) jeimuzu.x: you cant jump between them
you cant do language as math
because you have to go through the other layers
between them
(21:09) jeimuzu.x: see what I mean?
(21:09) Michael: you are your layers
i hope one day you sit down, plan it out, and right this down as a theory
(21:09) jeimuzu.x: I should
(21:09) Michael: then i can really think about it
(21:09) jeimuzu.x: hahaha
(21:09) Michael: i think theres too much of a gap between us right now to have a serious argument
or have you gotten this theory from somewhere else?
that i can read up on?
(21:09) jeimuzu.x: Thing is, if you truly understood what I said, I expect you'd believe it
(21:10) jeimuzu.x: no, pretty much all of it is what I've imagined
Um
the only place you might want to look
(21:10) Michael: everybody thinks that
(21:10) jeimuzu.x: is some MCSE handbook
for networking
it describes network layers
(21:10) Michael: i odnt mean this offensively, but thats just being narrow-minded
(21:10) jeimuzu.x: it got me thinking about layours
oh we all have our influences
(21:10) Michael: i understand that you cant ever escape your own subjectivism, but you have to accept that not everyone understands in the same way you do
(21:10) jeimuzu.x: yes
back to individualism
which I believe in
(21:11) jeimuzu.x: I yearn for someone to find a real hole in my thinking
(21:11) jeimuzu.x: first time we talked about extecenenentialism
really got me thinking
well
(21:11) Michael: existentialism*
(21:11) jeimuzu.x: not e-ism itself
but like
I think tehrefore I am concept
(21:11) Michael: "exist" "ent" "ialism"
(21:11) jeimuzu.x: existentialism
(21:11) Michael: bing
(21:11) jeimuzu.x: yay
(21:11) Michael: oh thats not existentialism
yay :D
(21:12) jeimuzu.x: yeah
(21:12) Michael: I think therefore I am - the first principle of Cartesian Dualism
know what that is?
(21:12) jeimuzu.x: Well extisentialism's gap is logically very very painful
(21:12) Michael: the belief that mind is a separate substance from the body, and thus outside of the physical
(21:12) jeimuzu.x: no I have no idea
(21:12) Michael: which gap?
there are many
(21:12) jeimuzu.x: the one I thought of
(21:12) jeimuzu.x: about evolution
the prospect of a line between us and animals
(21:13) jeimuzu.x: and don't animals have a language, on a FAR more SIMPLIFIED scale,a nd obviously limited by their lack of collaboration as a species (and the fact that they cannot talk)
thats another thing
(21:14) Michael: do you think all animals can think?
(21:14) jeimuzu.x: Not on our level
but they do have a fair bit of psychology to them
see they can only go up to a certain level
(21:14) Michael: you think all animals think to some degree?
(21:14) jeimuzu.x: depends how you define think
but yes, they have a degree of psychology
(21:14) jeimuzu.x: its exponential really
(21:14) Michael: make decisions
(21:15) Michael: to what extent do amoebas make decisions?
to you
(21:15) jeimuzu.x: a percentage so low it is insignificant and doesn't matter at all
(21:16) Michael: i dont think amoebas make decisions at all
i think they are chemical processes
(21:16) jeimuzu.x: yes
(21:16) Michael: thats just me
(21:16) jeimuzu.x: but thats a cutoff
(21:16) Michael: lets take this further
ants
(21:16) jeimuzu.x: that % is so small its insignificant
still so small its insignificant
(21:16) jeimuzu.x: as I said
exponential
(21:16) Michael: i dont think ants make decisions either, though they are not simply chemical processes, they work on instinct and instinct alone
(21:16) jeimuzu.x: but something like a dog
that thinks, at a very very simple level
(21:16) Michael: no, chemical processes are in ABSOLUTELY NO WAY linked to decisions
(21:17) Michael: there can be no exponential growth from something that does not exist
(21:17) jeimuzu.x: so that means there must still be a line here
(21:17) Michael: does a chemical make a decision, ever?
no
(21:17) jeimuzu.x: and lines are painful
(21:17) Michael: it would be ridiculous to suggest that a chemical would
yes, we are precisely saying there is a line
i am( hopefully) forcing you to admit that there are lines
like it or not
(21:17) jeimuzu.x: It's difficult
I've never believed in lines at all
(21:17) Michael: funnily enough, the thing i seek and destroy are not lines, but blurs, i like lines
lines clarify
(21:18) jeimuzu.x: finally, something to consider
(21:18) Michael: what i HATE about law, is how much of a blur there is
(21:18) jeimuzu.x: Thats because the world works on blurs
(21:18) Michael: i hate law, by the way
the whole idea of it
i understand it is necessary
but i hate it
(21:19) Michael: and i wish it were less moral and more efficient
(21:19) jeimuzu.x: lines are suck a fuckup concept as they go against the way the world works
even if they are there
(21:19) Michael: you may think it does, i think the weak-minded make it so
(21:19) jeimuzu.x: thing is
(21:19) Michael: the world is a collection of absolutes
theres no "maybe" about the universe
(21:19) jeimuzu.x: its 1 or 0
we dont "nearly" exist
(21:19) Michael: exactly
its 1 or 0
(21:20) jeimuzu.x: :]
Makes me think, yes
(21:20) jeimuzu.x: but I hope i've made you think
(21:20) Michael: yeah, about how different we are
(21:21) Michael: me: -------
you: ~~~~~~
(21:21) jeimuzu.x: Don't be callin' me gay
(21:21) jeimuzu.x: is that supposed to be a blur
(21:21) Michael: lolbbq
(21:21) jeimuzu.x: so where would you place the line were animals stop thinking
(21:21) jeimuzu.x: hey look
(21:21) Michael: actually, i think about that a lot
(21:22) jeimuzu.x: levels help us here
(21:22) Michael: and i dont know, i think that there IS a line
obviously
(21:22) jeimuzu.x: as they provide linear steps
at a certain line
an animal gains psychology
(21:22) jeimuzu.x: at another line, an animal gains sociology
I mean I'd say 2 lines maybe?
probably more
but at a basic level
(21:22) Michael: i thought you said there wasnt a line?
or that you dont like lines?
(21:22) jeimuzu.x: this is me thinking as if there were a line
(21:23) jeimuzu.x: As I dont know fi there is or not
right, so 2 line
s
one, where an animal thinks at all
(21:23) jeimuzu.x: has psychology
then every animal is after tha
except us
we have...society, whatever
so its like stages
(21:23) Michael: yes, im with you
(21:24) Michael: why do we involve levels?
are levels just another word for stages? :S
(21:24) jeimuzu.x: well
levels as I'm thinking
can relate directly to the lines
(21:24) jeimuzu.x: but then think about it, ants have society, a concept that is explained through sociology and psychology, is, within ants purely due to instinct and chemistry
(21:25) jeimuzu.x: not really saying much with last point
i expect you can see that
(21:25) Michael: you may call it society
(21:25) jeimuzu.x: well ant isnt society
(21:25) Michael: its not society in the same sense as human society exists
(21:25) jeimuzu.x: its just structure
yes
thats what I was saying
(21:26) jeimuzu.x: just arguing my own random incorrect idea there
(21:26) Michael: yah
seems like we dont really think that differently here
(21:26) jeimuzu.x: no
well
lines are still pretty hard
(21:26) jeimuzu.x: I think I beleive in them in a differet way
Ie you see it as a little line
I see it as like, being up a step
(21:26) jeimuzu.x: (by step I mean levels)
(21:27) Michael: but dont you think the best way to understand is to find those lines?
i dont see lines as a barrier
(21:27) jeimuzu.x: possibly
woo metaphor
(21:27) Michael: more like a research project
(21:27) jeimuzu.x: yes
It could be very interesting
I wish I had the........motivation to write this all down in a cohesive piece
(21:27) jeimuzu.x: we could write a great book
through our argument
(21:28) Michael: heheh yeah
ive decided my essay i was writing was wrong
gone back on my own theory
so im gonna have to start a new one
(21:28) Michael: analysis of language through philosophical means is hard enough
(21:29) Michael: (but possible, as opposed to mathematics)
:-O OOOH I DIDNT
(21:30) jeimuzu.x: ha
(21:30) The following message could not be delivered to all recipients:
ha
(21:30) jeimuzu.x: ha
(21:30) jeimuzu.x: well the problem is as I said before, you cant directly explain language through mathematics
because that would be skipping layers
(21:30) jeimuzu.x: Although that CAN work on computers
it generally doesnt
(21:31) Michael: 01010101010111010100101001110
010110
(21:31) jeimuzu.x: hello
that means nothing to the computer
well its a string
(21:31) Michael: well that 0101 was like 0101010101010100101110101010100010101 times 1000 to the computer
(21:31) jeimuzu.x: but either wat, those 1 and 0 will just be seen as ascii characters
(21:31) Michael: silly little laptop
(21:31) jeimuzu.x: yeah
(21:31) Michael: you can never think
[pat]
(21:32) jeimuzu.x: but its not directly fed to the cpu
its processed through MSN's api
which is written in C++ most likely
(21:32) jeimuzu.x: which is then reduced to assember
and fed to the CPU as instructions
(21:32) Michael: im really interested
(21:32) jeimuzu.x: its a lot more complicated than how I've described it
(21:32) Michael: please, go on
dont mind me yawning, i had a long night
YAAAAWWWWWNNNNN
(21:32) jeimuzu.x: but in the real wordl, tis far far far more complex
(21:33) jeimuzu.x: fine
lets talk about...pirates of the carribean
(21:33) Michael: haha sorry
(21:33) jeimuzu.x: seen it yet?
(21:33) Michael: havent seen it
talk about it and i block you
:P
im gonna play some games now anyway
(21:34) jeimuzu.x: What games
Want to play online?
something
(21:34) Michael: Michael auto-message: gaming woooo
(21:34) jeimuzu.x: Oy
want to play HL2DM or somthing
(21:34) Michael: LMS for Doom 3 is pretty good
shame we couldnt get the servers working properly
:(
(21:34) jeimuzu.x: dont hve d3, rapes PC
(21:34) Michael: dont have it anymore
(21:34) Michael: but the point is, im playing Doom 3
(21:35) jeimuzu.x: oh ok :(
Labels: logs, philosophy
posted by antihero @ 3:05 PM
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